How Octopus Energy used culture to reach the top
I’m often asked asked which company cultures I admire, especially as I tend to be critical of the culture inside tech firms. It’s easy to have good vibes in small firms but organisations who manage to deliver good culture at scale are the ones I’m most interested in. I often call out Nando’s or Octopus Energy.
I was delighted to get the chance to talk to the CEO of Octopus Energy Group, Greg Jackson. I’ve often reflected that the best cultures seem to be codified and made explicit, but Octopus’s culture isn’t really defined by formal values, Jackson doesn’t pin it down to three or four words. Instead the culture has a vivid feeling but is loosely articulated, a tangible mix of trust, autonomy and a shared mission.
Cultures are often defined by what they’re against as much as what they are for. Many companies give a laundry list of desirable attributes they strive for. There’s an organisation at the end of my street that has ‘excellence’ and ‘respect’ on its windows, but would any business claim to be built on mediocrity or disrespect? Aren’t they just given? Sometimes these things are called the Pillars of Character. Yes, we have integrity here, but how does that help you work here?
For businesses these pillars are useless for creating differentiation. Jackson’s approach at Octopus stands apart from that, he takes issue with common norms elsewhere. Researching for the conversation I listened to one interview where Jackson talked about the absence of back-to-back meetings in his day. He said:
First of one thing I do that I think is unusual is I don’t pack my day with meetings. I’m religious about having lots of time outside meetings because in the one hour that someone wants to have a meeting, I can make 10 phone calls or I could drop by the desks of half a dozen team members and I can be available for people to deal with what’s going on that day. So one thing for me is your time is far too precious to let it get soaked up on other people’s meeting requests. It’s quite funny when I got a new PA, she came from a very large software company and I said, ‘I’ve got a lot of meetings tomorrow’. And she said, well, where I used to work, my job was to pack from 8 AM to 5 PM every day, hour by hour by hour. And I was like, Whoa, how does that person get any thinking time? How does it get any, any time to reset? And how does it get to do anything proactive that changes the world?
After the conversation, which was recorded live on stage near Guildford, someone came up to me. ‘My son works at Octopus,’ he said. Here we go, I thought. ‘Every single word he said up there is true. He says he wishes he’d joined there years ago’.
Take a listen, I’d love to hear your thoughts.
Links
Greg on High Performance podcast
Transcript
Bruce
let’s welcome Greg Jackson, who is the group CEO of Octopus Energy. Welcome, Greg.
Greg
Yeah, how you doing?
Bruce
Where do we find you today, Greg?
I’m in trendy East London. should be with you, but I got called to a meeting with the Foreign Office and couldn’t turn that down because I think you never know what James Bond might want.
Bruce
So Greg, I’m so thrilled to get the opportunity to talk to you because the one thing that really inspires me about Octopus Energy and everything you’ve created here is it seems to have culture right at the heart of every single thing you do. What I’ve found hard to pin down though is that I couldn’t necessarily work out precisely how you would articulate your culture. Do you think about that? How do you describe your culture to other people?
Greg
Well, think the thing about culture is it’s a lived experience. You can’t dictate it. It’s the organic way in which people interact. I just like you think about cultures, not within business, but within society and different countries around the world. You can kind of describe it from the outside, but you can’t tell someone, you you can’t codify everything. And so I think… What we try to do is have relentless discussions about the stuff that is most important and then allow people to be themselves and how they work within that.
Bruce
One of the things I’ve just been discussing now is the importance of autonomy, the importance of people feeling like someone’s got their back if they want to make a decision. And there seems to be countless examples through everything that octopus do that really, if there was one thing that seems to be the tent pole of the way you work, it’s giving people autonomy, it’s giving the people who work here autonomy. I’d love to just break that down. What does that look like and what is the process of giving someone whose job is maybe to deal with customer problems. What is the process of gifting them that autonomy?
Greg
I think there are couple of parts. mean, first of all, one of our early investors from a very traditional background described this as all the fluffy stuff. They kind of dismissed it. And it’s too easy, I think, to treat this kind of the importance of the human factor like autonomy as being some sort of, I don’t know, lentil eating hippie approach to business. But then we look at what happened when Russia invaded Ukraine.
The whole world was absolutely blown away by how impressively Ukraine as a much smaller nation was able to take on this phenomenal power of Russian’s military. And they were able to do that because they devolved decision-making, autonomy, the ability to be creative into their organization. So rather than working in the old command and control way or the very rigid way that the Russians did, Ukraine was able to reinvent warfare and has relentlessly done that throughout this horrific conflict. So I think this isn’t fluffy stuff. This is hard nosed, proven and more likely to drive success. And I think it also, by the way, drives far greater happiness and satisfaction for employees. People outside of work are able to solve the incredible problems of, you know, to their size and cost of living, social media on their kids, how to get, you know, of a manic balance, work-life balance, all that stuff. And they do all of that. And then they come to work and we infantilize them and expect them to have to follow a series of very prescriptive rules and policies. So autonomy is about relentlessly taking out those rules and policies and replacing them with a very clear vision, very clear objective. So In the case of the Ukrainian army, was win the war, beat the Russians. That’s very straight forward to understand. And in our case, it’s relentlessly deliver better experiences for customers as we drive down the cost of the energy transition. if people know that’s the north star, then they can make decisions daily. And I think the second component is how you use technology. again, the way, Ukraine showed us something really interesting.
instead of on the incredibly expensive procurement processes of the military, the US, the UK, and so on, they were literally buying consumer drugs and sort of bodging on explosives and whatever else is required. But that way they could reduce the cost of fighting by 10x or 100x. And so think when we’re thinking about technology, we need to also say, look, the double technology should not be to constrain people.
That’s what delivers and control them. That’s what delivers computer says no. Instead, the job of technology would be to enable them. Like show that, you know, for example, our case, the main technology platform cracking enables our customer people to see everything that’s going on with a customer in order they can better look after them. And it takes away all these things that says, you know, if you want to give someone a 30 quid credit because we screwed up, it takes away the bit they have to go and ask for permission. It takes days. They just do it there and then.
The final bit of this though, of course you need to monitor all this because you don’t want it to become a wild west. Nice people are really good at taking responsibility. They actually act better when there are no rules. When there’s too many rules people get used to breaking them and gaming them. When there are fewer rules they behave better. But there’s always going to be outbreaks of things that go wrong either because there’s a few people who are miscreants, there’s a few people who will misunderstand, there’s a few people who will judge it right.
But if you’ve got good data, you can spot that as it’s happening and deal with it appropriately. And so I think this kind of technology we call it freedom and responsibility enables you to innovate faster, deliver a dramatically better customer experience, so this is more fulfilling for employees. And actually, I think it delivers us more a business that has great responsibility for what matters.
Bruce
It’s worth saying you’re doing this at scale. You your energy business, so we’re here with Octopus EV today, but your energy business is the second biggest energy supplier in the UK. it’s a scale business. The thing that was interesting to me when I chatted to a couple of friends who are our customers, they seem to be really fond of your customer focus. My energy supplier, apologies. is not Octopus currently and I have no fondness for them whatsoever and I was just really interested that these people told me that they had a strong… How do you get that customer focus? How do you… You know, you’re doing the same that someone might describe it as a commoditized space but how do you get a customer focus that maybe another organization in the same space just simply doesn’t have?
Greg
Well, first of all, by the way, don’t be sorry you’re not with us. I’m sorry for you. When you do switch, I will look after you very well. If we get anything wrong, you’ve got my email and we’ll make sure we sort it. And by the mean that, and I say to every customer I make. think, though, look, first of all, yeah, also you said we do it at scale. We also do it while growing very, very quickly. So we’re now the biggest end-to-end supplier in the UK, by an increasing margin every day.
We employ about 11,000 people across the Group, about 8,000 in the UK. So I think that, talked earlier about having a really clear vision and objective. Everyone in our company, whether it be an octopus energy supplier, whether it be an octopus energy electric vehicles, whether it be in our businesses that install low carbon tech in people’s homes, they should all have that North Star. And every week we get the entire company together for something we call family dinner. There’s no dinner and we’re not a family, but it’s kind of a bit like families get together sometimes and have a big dinner to kind of all connect with each other. And we do that to connect with each other. In person, we’re people who are in offices. In Zoom, joining up all the offices and those who are not. And yeah, there’d be thousands of people on this call.
It’s not manicured, it’s very chaotic. But it enables me and our leaders to lent the surface of stories of things that have gone on during the week to illustrate what we do as a company, how we work. And so think by the way, I think a few years ago, pretty much everyone in business, especially in people functions and leadership functions, saw the Netflix culture deck. loads tried to try to create their own version. We did that too, but we found it was just impossible to write down a culture. We spent longer thinking about the words than we were doing on most important stuff, the kind of concepts and the context. And so we also created a podcast, which was really just designed for internal people. So we’d have long discussions about topics that were much richer and deeper than you’d probably, and more organic.
But it turned out to be quite powerful outside the organization too. And this helped to attract 100,000 job applicants and customers listen to it. All of that creates this customer first culture. And I think one thing I was really proud of is last week, every year we’ve been holding something called the Energy Technology Summit, a bit like the day you’re at today, but for energy technology with people in the industry, few policymakers and journalists.
And I decided to open it up to the public. So five weeks before this was meant to be 400 people, I said why don’t we make it 3000 and invite customers. We did a test mailing and 300,000 customers would give up a day to come and listen to a series of talks on energy and technology. So yeah, that kind of relationship you’re talking about is very real. And it came because everyone in the company should be listening to customers all the time. We don’t treat… and a cause has been something we need to avoid and deflect. They have the opportunity to talk to our customers, to listen to them, and to show them that we care. Though I guess it’s relentlessly core of what we do
Bruce
It is a really interesting thread that runs through the way that you treat customers and the way that you design your organization. Inside the organization, it seems to me that you seem intent on getting rid of red tapey style sign off processes. You described there how the employees can make decisions. And also with customers, I’ve seen that when you send emails to people, if customers reply to the emails, someone will get back to them, which is just not what happens when we deal with any sort of big company that we’re buying from. Just trying to, I think, be clear-eyed about the processes that we find frustrating, both internally and externally, seem to be an important detail. And I wonder just how much that designing processes to get rid of frustrations is what you think the reality of creating great ecosystems is, whether internal or external getting rid of those micro frustrations seems to be an important consistency across both elements.
Greg
I think it’s incredibly important. We’re in a society where people feel more more disconnected. They feel the system is against them. Now, in a state like ours, everyone has to have our product. There is no choice. It’s not discretionary. It’s why I’m not responsive to listening to and genuinely building the business around our customers and for them. And we add to that sense of disconnect. And I think… You know, you talk there about the emails. For example, it was a really early decision that we wouldn’t have no reply as an email address. Every email address is a reply once. I think we probably do get many communications from customers than other companies. We see that as a benefit. Like, all companies have to run focus groups. We’ve never run a focus group. You know, a hundred thousand conversations a week with our customers. If we don’t know what they think, if we don’t know what we’re getting wrong and, you the kind of stuff that matters to them, then, you know, I don’t know, we’re not doing our job right. So I think this idea that you can replace the traditional idea of an organization of massive walls between new customers. And then when you want to do research and things like that, you’re going to do it in a very social environment. You can make it much more organic. The only thing I love is, for example, if someone writes to us about the website, very often we’ll just read that query to the people who designed the website.
And you literally get some… So the company, this idea there’s an alien company that’s doing stuff you don’t understand, you literally talk to the people who are building it.
Bruce
Does that work internally as well? The way you’ve described family dinners there is, is Greg still there? Oh yeah, okay, okay. The way you’ve described family dinners, that sort of team meeting at the end of the week, it feels like an evolution from what I heard you talking about previously, which was Friday night pints. And I guess that was different moment in time but when the company was a degree smaller you would all gather on Friday evenings and have beers together. Is that one of the ways that you get feedback from employees or is that just about creating a sense of cohesion and a sense that we are all part of something?
Greg Jackson)
Yeah, first of all, think you’re right. It all started with Friday night pints. And it was actually in previous business when the co-founders, there were about five of us, went to pints on a Friday. And we found that all the stresses of the week disappeared, not just because of the pleasure of the delicious beverages, but also because it helps you remember that sales and tech and marketing, we’re all trying to do the same thing.
I think we’re subject to different pressures. And it reminds you, it’s not those idiots in finance do this and those fools in marketing don’t pay attention to what operations can do and what operations can’t deliver. was actually, these are brilliant people in every function. We’re all trying to achieve the same thing. And the more we discussed it, the more suddenly we were a coherent organization and stronger. As the organization grew, that company, we grew to about 100 people and then we sold it. And the CFO of the acquiring company one day came over to me and said, you do realize that you’re spending, you know, don’t know how much it was, I’d buy, you know, £5,000 every Friday night in the pub. And I was like, yep, I do. And he said, well, it, was like the salary of several FTE. And said, brilliant, it probably saves the salary of 50 FTE because our team worked more effectively. We should spend more of it, not less. And I think that kind of concept is what’s scaled here. So it reminds us.
It enables us as a management team to get everyone on the same page and reminds everybody about how brilliant their colleagues are. And so it’s a combination of both the kind of presentation aspects and the direct conversations people have with each other. And surfacing, it also makes me so proud when we surface something that the backend functions like finance are doing. That something makes all the people that otherwise get stressed through the finance department. So they have huge respect for them. So that’s great. I think in terms of scale, there’s just many things I’ve learned and I think this is the fifth business I’ve done and hopefully the last is that I’m just getting too old. the, one of the things that is that people always advise you what got you here won’t get you there. You know, now you’re big, you need to change. And you know what? I used to believe that. And every time I did it, things got worse, not better. Relentless here. I’m just like, let’s give me advice. yeah, effort. It got us here. It’s probably pretty good.
Greg Jackson
And so, you know, from my perspective, all these increases success, you say, now we’re bigger, we do some different. It’s now we’re We just ensure we relentlessly scale the stuff that works. And we all read about it in the take a boat. All of us have read, you know, things like, know, Drive by Daniel Pink. How much we actually changed the way we run organizations based on what we learned. And I think this business was the opportunity to say, relentlessly or stick true to the stuff that we know that works, not those temptations, the more process, more control there’s on.
Bruce
I’d love to just get into some of the practicalities. Everything you talk about is so eye-opening and fascinating and inspiring to hear actually. But I would love to know, for example, some of the mechanics when you’ve done acquisitions, when you’ve brought people in from Bulb, how do you communicate to people joining? you’ve not codified this culture, if you’ve not written it down, if you’ve not got this, the classic old thing of set of values or mission statement.
How do you pass on to them beyond just vibes? How are you gifting them the sense of understanding your goal track? Because it’s worth clarifying, you also don’t have an HR department. So some of the ways that typically will like seek to do this, you’ve not got that infrastructure place. How do you do it? What are the practical steps to do that?
Greg
I mean, first of all, things like those big acquisitions, think with both, it’s one and a half million customers and we fully integrated it within six months, we acquired Shell Energy, which is 1.4 million customers and fully integrated in 51 days. The final thing is that often drag companies down. The first bit here has been relentlessly confident. This is the way we do stuff. So, you know,
Greg Jackson
Very often people try to be polite and say, I’m going to do the best of both or whatever. It’s like, this isn’t the best of both. You’re joining Octopus and we do the Octopus way. This is the way that works. And by the way, we would love to embrace you and your talents as part of this, but we’re not going to change how we operate. I speed is essential. longer any organizational change goes on, more painful it gets. Now you said, we don’t have an HR department. That’s true. But we do have some people, professionals. And on a project like this, there’ll be two or three, maybe five people professionals working 10-2 with one or two contractors and whoever is on the other side to ensure that we have people process a very swift and very steady. And then our operational function really runs everything. So on day one of an acquisition, our operation function swoop into the other organization to start identifying how we’re going to stoop the people and customers out of that organization and put them into August bus. But the whole thing is we’ve got this big machine and we’re going to incorporate them into it, not kind of run it in parallel for ages or have a complex merger. And we now have done 30 or 40 migrations at scale, so we know it works.
A of things being very candid because I think candid is so important. With Bulb, 93 % of the people stayed after the acquisition. And I’m really proud of that. Bulb people were very good at what they did and most of started in brilliant and some have gone on to do some of the most senior roles in the business. think with Shell, was much more corporate and frankly, I think when we acquired it, over 2,000 people and we probably only needed, I know, 400. And so it was a much more painful process. But again, running it quickly enables us to be very, very fair with people. They weren’t ever in any doubt about, you know, they weren’t spending a year going through consultations. Ironically, Shell itself was having a series of redundancies at the time and had gone through year after year. People had been in this kind permaconsultation mode, which is horrendous. and we were able to run a much fairer process with very, very generous limit packages so people had clarity. So I think speed, clarity, fairness, but absolutely, yeah, being clear that the… they’re joining our organization because we’re successful and we’re not going to change it.
Bruce
One of the things that really comes across talking to you is that there’s such a force of character, such a strong sense of convictions, clear sense of the way you want to run the organization. And I saw in a couple of interviews you did, you said that you’d originally told yourself when you get to 100 employees, you were going to leave. And then when you got to 200 employees, you’re going to leave. then you sort of kicked that down the road. And the way you interpreted that is that you were, I got the sense you didn’t like being the big boss because you just don’t like corporate authority, like this idea of institutional authority. And I wonder if that is the secret of your success, the sense that you’ve built an organization without any of the BS that think we’ve all learned to tolerate because you don’t like it yourself. Would you say that there’s a line that runs through those things that you’ve created an organization that effectively is the only sort of place that you could put up with working in?
Greg
Yeah, I’d genuinely if I wasn’t enjoying it and I’d leave and even today we’ve got shareholders on the board and so if that ever becomes something I feel is bureaucratic and BS or not serving what we set out to do, I’d much rather leave. I wouldn’t stay for the very prestige whatever. think on the one thing that happened in the early, which was instrumental. And in many ways, I’m just a lucky bag carrier for it. Whereas our initial business plan was to be Ryanair for energy. I.e. we were going to be unbelievably cheap because we were brutally operationally efficient and we would essentially recongnize customers to do as we said in the way we said. And we wouldn’t even take phone calls. Everything would be automated.
And our first investor said, look, I love everything you’ve got in your business plan about technology, operation, efficiency, everything else. But I think you should love your customers. That’s what will differentiate you in this sector. And honestly, once he said that, I thought he was right. so we fundamentally, everything we talk about now about putting customers at heart, you know, the way we were previously going to do it was by basically saying, look, we know that customers are the cheapest energy, just like Ryanair, no people on the cheapest flights and we’ll deliver that. But I think actually what we’ve done is it’s still better value than any other energy company. The technology enables us to be incredibly operationally efficient, but it also enables us to empower the team to be more interactive with customers than anybody else to give better experiences. And I think this is a much better model, but it really came from there. Now this idea of, know, sorry, myself, when we got to a hundred people and then I said, Ture, was all based on the idea we could automate everything. And I think
candidly, I learned that in a sector like energy where we’ve got to provide universal service, I can’t just provide unbelievably cheap energy for those people that are willing to be, know, interact only the way we prescribe. You know, we actually have to be there for everyone. Otherwise, I can’t say that our solutions are going to be the right ones for society. yeah, a massive change It came from a very wise investor who by the way has continually backed us and prevented us and enabled us to keep saying no to the BS stuff on the way.
Bruce
It’s really interesting that the journey through that question. Do you see customer service and culture as the same ecosystem then sort of treating employees well and treating customers well? They’re all anchored around the same principles or because that Ryanair version, you could have something that maybe is unwelcoming for customers, but great for employees. You’ve ended up at something that feels far more rounded. And I just wondered how you saw the relationship between those two things.
Greg
It’s also, think, Ryanair are unbelievably good for customers, right? They just know the customers so well. There’s a great interview with Michael O’Leary where something’s gone wrong. issue is that social media is full of people saying they’ll never fly Ryanair again. And Michael O’Leary said, my planes are full of people who said they’ll never fly Ryanair again. And I think understanding your customers well enough to break convention
They can do it in one way. Now, if we do it in another, which is actually understanding if we put all the inputs coming from every address, if we welcome call, there’s no average call handling time. So you spend as long time to our people as want. They’re not harmed in getting your sign. Not having tons of sign-off, so things like goodwill credits. They will break conventional wisdom as well, because I think we have a better understanding of the fact that customer-
Very, very few customers want to spend hours on the phone with an energy company. We do have a very, very tiny number, but it’s small enough it’s never going to be an issue. And so I think that kind of cultural approach to truly understanding the people who are customers is really what lies at the heart of that. And breaking financial wisdom is of the thing we had to test when we were small, that we then be able to scale. But I think on the people’s side, you with our teams,
You can’t… It’s very, hard to live with the kind of experience we’ve just been talking about. If you don’t have a team who are committers, who feel empowered, who are continually feeding back both the family dinner and indeed, by the way, sorry, we’ve got tons of child feedback to kind of continue help us develop the way we operate and the processes of us doing the provide. So I think the two are intimately bound up. And if we’re on the street, customers wish that we really have the people with respect. But this goes far further because, for example, when we joined the energy sector, dominant business was companies would interface new customers on the price comparison site with a loss-leading price. And then a year later, they’d hike the price up to 50 % and recover the losses. But in doing so, half the customers would turn away. By the way, half the ones that didn’t turn away would just was the word they gave up. They hated the company. They knew this was happening, but they felt they couldn’t win. so challenging that business model by saying what we wanted to do was have pricing that was sustainable from day one. So you join us, it’s a bit more expensive than others, but a year later and every year thereafter, it’ll be cheaper unless you want to get into that kind of just relentless, of treadmill of switching to the best deal and then go to all the hassle of setting up new apps and new backcats and things going wrong.
You know, there’s kind of like, we can only do that if we provided a good enough experience, people actually want to stay with us. We don’t do that if we the right model with our people. But I you’ve got to get these, very often you need to move from one paradigm, where every part of the system is designed around your existing business model or organization, to an entirely new paradigm. If you just change one or two bits of it, it can often fail.
Bruce
We’re coming to the end now and I guess everyone in the room here has spent a short while now thinking about culture and then listening to you talk about the realities of it. Is there anything, as we’re looking forward for the next few years, how do you think that the people in this room should be thinking about creating culture in their teams, in their organisations? What are the one or two things that we should be focused on as we’re thinking about the journey to 2030?
Greg Jackson
I think relentless honesty and being honest with ourselves. Wishful thinking is the great enemy of shareholder value of corporate success. So the world is changing faster now than ever before. And it’s only going to start changing faster. Say for example, in our organization, the pricing team asked us to, they were just working too hard when we were doing price changes. And they asked us to give them more planning horizon. And that’s why I said we need less planning horizon, but we need you to understand when, how to cope with that so that we can be more agile because in an ever changing world, we just need to get more agile. And so, you know, with that team, we ended up saying, look, it’s always going to be a frantic process. The shorter we make it, the easier it’s to be.
But when you know it’s coming, we can then book. You can literally book a week off after with the company will obviously pay. But so you know that you’re to have a few brutal days every two months, but you’ll also have recovery time instead of allowing the process to extend. I think, related to thinking about how do you make your organization more agile, rather than trying to create more processes so everyone can do things more slowly, is going to be ever more critical. And I’m really reminded of, you know, there’s a quote from Bill Gates that says, the world in two years will look exactly like it does now. And the world in 10 years will look entirely different. We just don’t know what the changes will be in way. And so I think we need to be building organizations with that in mind. Otherwise, what you do is you kind of set a three year plan. And so that three years is exactly, just as you have your three year plan, you’re entirely the wrong shape.
I said earlier, it’s so important to have that kind of North Star vision. And then people, then you can devolve responsibility in decision-making that people know what broadly speaking you try to achieve. And they can be an active part in delivering it. I think too many organizations spend an awful lot of time planning. People are just going to deliver KPIs that have been spent, ages engineering whole structure and the KPIs.
And just as people are getting going on that, you change the North Star and you end up with organizations where it’s like you might see halfway up the hill and then back down again, up the hill and back down again, as opposed to having the confidence to have a long-term fundamental vision of you’re doing and then devolve the actions to deliver it.
Bruce
Greg, we’re out of time, but I think everyone in the room will agree with me that that was absolutely fantastic and make us immensely envious of the culture you’ve created, I’m sure. Thank you.
Greg
And one thing is that, all right, every now and then when I can see you, I can see the cars behind you, I can see the audience. Look, this is a great example. The fundamentals of EVs are astonishing. They’re getting cheaper every year to buy. They’re so unbelievably cheap to run. For the vast majority of people, maybe not quite everyone, but they’re a better experience. If you can drive, if you can charge it, I mean, it’s unbelievable. An EV if can’t, it’s pretty good.
Remember, when people say things like, you know, not everyone can charge at home, no one can charge a petrol car at home. mean, the stuff I was talking about, the fundamentals and the confidence to drive this path. Right now, the fossil fuel industry, the traditional car industry are seeing, you know, they’re in long term decline. And that means that right now is the maximum point of confusion, fear, uncertainty and doubt about the transition to evens.
you only need to live with them to realize that absolutely the future and it’s the confidence of the people that lead on this that are going to be thanked by their good customers, partners and society because look this is inevitably going to happen so we might as well be you in the vanguard of it and enjoy bringing it to people.
Bruce
Fabulous. give it up for Greg. Thank you, Greg Jackson.
