Life Reclaimed: Pippa Grange on Burnout & Performance Psychology
A return interview with Dr Pippa Grange, a performance (“regenerative”) psychologist who has worked with the England men’s football team and who has earned the admiration of Brene Brown.
I’m always excited to hear from the likes of Pippa, elite practioners who have earned the respect of the most respected high performers in the world.
Pippa has a new book out, Life Reclaimed, which is a reflection on burnout, the need for overperformance and how to achieve balance in life. It’s partly informed by her work with some of the most talented people in the world and certainly bears the trace of her own experiences with burnout.
She also previews the BBC TV adaptation of Dear England featuring a character based on her.
Transcript
Bruce Daisley: just to kick off, I wonder if you could introduce who you are and what you do.
Pippa Grange Yeah, I am Pippa Grange. I am a performance psychologist, or what I now call a regenerative performance psychologist. And for the last 25 or so years I’ve worked with organizations, teams, and individuals to help them stay in one piece and enjoy the ride while they’re doing amazing things. Performing in most often in sport.
Most of my career has been in sport, but also. Business and science and tech and industry at large. So yeah, that’s kind of me in a nutshell.
Bruce Daisley: Now I was revisiting the notes, albeit that you and I have. Communicated many times in the last time since you’ve been on the podcast. But when you’re on the podcast, which is a pre COVID thing, just left the FAand the book actually talks about, it opens your new book. You we should introduce your new book, but the new book begins with you describing your burnout in that period. And I’ve tried to back and piece together where you were in that So fill us in.
Pippa Grange After the fa I went and worked with another football organization which was fantastic, right To dream. They’re a an organization that has football clubs and developmental academies across the world. And I was chief culture officer there, which was a really great job. But as. And my burnout was at the end of that period.
But as you would know yourself, but also from reading the book, that is burnout’s not an event. It’s a cumulative gathering of situations and circumstances and overreaching for a long period of time. And then it’s involuntary when it comes. I don’t associate it with that role necessarily, but more a long journey, getting to that point.
Bruce Daisley: Okay. Okay. That makes sense. I was just trying to place exactly the sort of the time and the place
Bruce Daisley: And how that went through. I wonder if you could lean into that a bit more. You talked there about burnout is not necessarily an event. How do you think about burnout, especially having either witnessed it in, other people experienced it yourself? How do you think about burnout?
Pippa Grange I think what it is basically a very uncomfortable involuntary transition away from what’s no longer working for you. Excuse me. And, the way I see it is. As I said, cumulative gathering of denying, avoiding, ignoring, overriding yourself and all the signals that your body’s giving you until eventually your body says, Hey, I’m I’m gonna take over here.
This you handing over the keys. This is no longer an option for you and you. And a full burnout, as I experienced is. Not light work. It’s very physical. It’s, it has a set of symptoms, a vast set of symptoms that many people experience differently, but the ones I experienced had a lot to do with cognitive fog and massive fatigue and low mood and inability to just basically have any mojo on any given day.
I was on the couch for a while. And I’m not a couch person, so it was, it was involuntary. My body was involuntary involuntarily making me do what it needed because I was refusing to listen for so long. So I see it like that. It’s a it’s a hard thing across the research and the literature.
It’s a hard thing to actually define. It’s a, it is still got the word syndrome with it. It’s not yet a. Considered e evidenced enough and clean and clear enough to be described as a disease or an illness. And we use the term colloquially, like if you’ve had a rough week you might say you’re a bit burnt out this week, but actually a full burnout is a much more sort of comprehensive falling apart basically.
And it takes a good while to come back.
Bruce Daisley: You talk about it. I wonder if this is part of what’s led you to write this really reflective book. This, the new book’s called Life Reclaimed and it’s a reflective, quite beautifully written into kind of the meaning that we derive from things what we’re setting out to do,
Why we might have those goals that we’re setting out to do. But one of the things that really struck me was that you talk about. Us burning out, not just because we do a lot, but because what we’re doing doesn’t give meaning to
Bruce Daisley: the way that we’re feeling. And that sense that burnout to some extent is almost a psychological rather than. Physical thing that
About You you talk about nurses ending who are burning out ’cause they’re doing reporting instead of nursing, teachers doing admin instead of teaching. that’s a really interesting, very relatable. It’s a really interesting reframing Roots. We might reach burnout
Bruce Daisley: love you to explore a bit more of that if you could.
Pippa Grange Yeah, absolutely. One thing I would say you, you would’ve read this in the book, but that sort of artificial division between your biology and your psychology. I conflate those a lot more, ’cause I don’t think, I don’t think things really just happen in our head or in our body.
Burnout is absolutely biological, but it’s also deeply psychological, that’s worth saying upfront. But, humans can overperform and we do it very often and it doesn’t cause a problem. It, the problem comes when it is chronic and when it’s taking us away from aligning with what we actually care about so that we’re masking, we’re pretending, we’re pushing.
When we don’t want to push, we’re overreaching psychologically and physically burnout is a culmination of those things. It’s like I describe it in the book as eventually being unfaithful to yourself, ’cause you, you are you’re getting a strong no from an internal No, but externally, you’re still doing it.
And it does definitely make a difference how much. Cost. It extracts when you are not attached to the thing that you’re doing or you’ve lost meaning in the thing that you’re doing. You are. Maybe it sometimes that can be, it’s too tasky and you don’t have anything other than the task.
It’s too repetitive. Sometimes that’s actually, it’s quite far away from what you thought you’d be doing or what you intended to do, but you’ve got yourself stuck in a rut or you feel like you’ve got yourself stuck in a rut and dunno how to come out of there.
Bruce Daisley: It’s I guess the reason why it’s so intriguing from you is and or you were a credible, really credible person to talk about it. We associate sports psychology or like elite psychology
Over performance or, EEE, elite level performance, getting the last of capability out of us. And so the balance between performance and then burnout, it’s a really important understanding for us to have.
And you talk a lot about over performance. You talk a lot about what is over performance, and I’d love you to go into that really, because it helped me reframe a sense of, excuse me. It helped me reframe what I thought a performance coach was setting out, tried to do
Pippa Grange Yeah I think the easiest way to approach this is to think about the reality of how of staying in one. One mode all the time, rather than moving in and out of a mode. And that mode in this case, as you are talking about, is intensity, right? So that getting that last dropout like blood, sweat, and tears, leave nothing out there that’s for game day, right?
If you live your whole life, like it’s game day. This is where we get a problem. And I think in industry particularly, we find a lot of that where there is there isn’t actually a, an end to the cycle. There isn’t there isn’t a weekend, there isn’t a, after the game period which there is in elite sport.
It’s cyclical. It’s rhythmic, and there is time for rest and renewal Otherwise. The person can’t perform at the weekend. The team can’t perform at the weekend. It’s actually really quite structured in that way to get the very best. But what we see is through a very small lens of game day and push.
Now, of course, you have to go to your, your edges when you are an elite performer. Of any kind, and that might be the edge of your fear, your courage. It might be the edge of your physical capability, but you don’t stay there. That’s the point. When we get in a chronic mode, just it’s a monoculture of style, that’s where we get into trouble.
So it’s being able to move, diversify speeds, rhythms, intensities, rest periods, go periods. And that’s really the message I want to leave people with is that if it. It’s never or go I use you would see as well. I draw not just from my history in high performance and sport, but from ecology and I make the point that nothing in ecology is in intensity.
The whole time is in grow, push, drive, the mad chaos of doing all the time. It’s always cyclical to some degree, and that’s. We override that as if we know better. And, but we’re not machines, we’re humans, we’re, we are bodied and our psychology works just the same way.
Bruce Daisley: And you work with a big range of different p people.
How has that message landed with businesses that you’ve worked with? I can understand. You talk about working with on screen talent, on field talent. Businesses, I think might really struggle to
Adapt to that. It’s New quarter, it’s always a new month. The big expectations of investors are unyielding. And I’m interested how that idea of, all of that’s perfectly makes perfect sense,
How it lands with businesses that maybe are expecting the unreasonable really.
Pippa Grange Yeah, that’s that’s a really great last sentence. But, I think the point is to explore and illuminate. How performance actually works. Performance is state dependent and if everybody is is, has a frazzled nervous system the whole time, they’re slightly dysregulated because everything is urgent, everything is pushed.
There is no rebound or buffer time, then you are going to get not just the risk of burnout, you’re gonna get worse decision making higher poor risk tolerance. Probably worse behavior, less collaboration, narrowed attention. So there’s a cost that goes with the push. The push is our sense of I speak about the start of the book, the narratives that we live in and our sense of needing always to optimize.
Never waste a moment stand out, do more, be more push harder, the kind of really, we’ve really imbibed those in workplaces and organizations, but they’re actually not the most effective method if what you want is sustained performance. You have to get people over the idea that it’s anti ambition, or it’s not even anti hussle, it’s pro sustainability.
It’s working with human beings rather than, machines. And that’s. That human experience where you want people to be able to access the values that are on the wall. They don’t, people don’t tune out of them for any other reason that, that they don’t have the capacity or the bandwidth left, when their nervous system is so dysregulated and includes their own beha, their own values.
So it’s really about the reframing of what. High performance takes. If it’s not just for now, if it’s not just this tiny window of opportunity, in which case push and drive maybe is the way, but there has to be a rebound. It’s like a put in the book in life, reclaim the, performance is coming up to the crest of the.
Circle and then you’ve gotta come down the other side too. What we do in organizations, oftentimes when it’s constant push is just rev on that first curve and never allow the completion of the cycle. And so people can’t even access their best ideas, their best decisions, there certainly not their best collaborations.
And I guess that’s the reframe. It’s it’s not about less performance. There’s nothing about lowering the standards here. It’s better methods.
Bruce Daisley: I If you were to go back you talked about like the period when you worked with a big sports club and then you went into sort of something more corporate. Were there any of those elements that were playing a part in your own experience that, you had gone from something that had natural seasons, ups and downs, peaks to now something that was more commercial, that was just that hamster wheel? Was any of that in your own experience?
Pippa Grange Yeah, definitely. That’s that that the kind of work that I do, I need to be able to diversify my mode speeds. It needs to be, I need to have the kind of rhythm where I can be imaginative, where I can find a real edge or a point of difference. And that doesn’t always happen when you’re sprinting.
So that is certainly a part, but I think for me it’s also worth saying, the realization as I’d moved up the chain and I was running departments and, executive roles for me personally, that took me away from this, the work I’m best at. And that rewards me most, which is one.
One-on-one or small intimate teamwork where I’m, it’s transformational and you can really change the way somebody’s living their life and performing at work, whatever their work is. Sitting around tables discussing stadiums and strategy wasn’t for me. It’s not that it’s wrong, it’s just that wasn’t the right alignment for me. And the pace piece absolutely dulled my imagination.
Bruce Daisley: It’s so interesting, isn’t it? Like I’ve heard businesses talk about Fridays or four day, four day weeks or all manner of little interventions that they introduce. And one of the things, so some where Summer Fridays might be they finish at three o’clock on a Friday in the summer months they give everyone the period between Christmas and New Year off and you don’t need to use vacation for it. And what you often hear is. ’cause there’s such an obsession with productivity and individualism that people looking at that will go, oh, there you go. You’ve just baked in low productivity. But what to some extent, using the lens that you’ve given there is actually allowing people to recognize this is. A between stage. This is this is a little moment in the calendar where we’re not going full pal, you’re giving them some subconscious signal that okay, it’s gonna get intense in September, enjoy August. Enjoy July.
Something in. Creating those rhythms maybe in an unspoken way, that possibly those businesses benefit from that by having this sort of subconscious communication of and troughs.
That’s the way I interpret some of what you’re saying
Pippa Grange Yeah, for sure. And, regenerative performance the word regenerative is to to renew to go again and renew. And for me, regenerative performance is being able to do it within the system that you are in rather than having to come out of the system and break. So the main point of this is that we don’t, we build. Workplace systems for output, not for human beings, and I think that we should really revisit that. I think it needs a lot of courage to revisit that, but at the end of the day. I’m talking about regenerative performance, not just as summer Fridays.
That’s lovely by the way, but not just as that, but how do you have, how do you make it normal that regulating the nervous system, buffering is part of the day? What how do you plan for when there’s a really heavy cognitive load and loads of decision making and loads of output required and then a softer period?
How do you make that part of your. Operational planning. How do you plan for even just in a an individual sort of workflow across a week? How do you plan for transitions so that there is no back-to-back meetings? We, everybody knows that we shouldn’t do back to back meetings, right? Are we, our cognitive capacity drops so dramatically.
You’re in the same room. The CO two’s gone up too far and everybody’s a little bit foggy and a bit. Less capable, but we still have that such a strong urgency to such a strong drive to push and do a bit more. It’s not what gets the result. So to step away and buffer and transition, walk, move, step outside.
There’s such small things, but it’s like how do you regulate within the day, not wait for the break. At the end of the week or at the, at three o’clock on a Friday, I would like to see redesign within the workplace. I would also really like to see it be taken seriously as something other than a perk.
If there’s nice things that go around your job, like a bit more time off on a Friday. How is the, how can you expand that thinking to make it about within work, within culture? And the culture is designed for regenerative performance. It’s not a lowering of standards, it’s not a lowering of productivity, it’s a lowering of urgency, false deadlines artificial priorities rush mentality, push mentality where it doesn’t need to be.
And it requires leadership permission. Requires demonstration and requires probably some better structural planning within workforces.
Bruce Daisley: One of the things that I the book is very good at is helping you to reappraise. What your actual ambitions are. Where do your motivations, your desires
Where, do I strive for this? Why am I driven by this? What’s gap inside me that’s thinking about this? And you you, there’s a chapter in there that talks about that a lot of high performance is. Essentially trauma dressed up as ambition. Like a lot of the time desire to do something is filling a void that they’ve felt inside them as you’ve worked directly with sports people, and you might have witnessed some of that. I’d love you to reflect on where we get our motivations from and sometimes in extremes where those motivations come from.
Pippa Grange Yeah, I think the thing with trauma is it amplifies rather than necessarily always creates, right? So if you are thinking, Hey, I’d really like to be the one who. Achieves X. You are, if there’s trauma kicking around, you might be so much more likely to override yourself, overperform, as I call it and, push yourself to the brink a little bit more.
So it’s, it is really about method as much as anything. But I do, both the narratives that I start with in the book of you know. Seeing ourselves as separate, and you can press override on yourself. Nothing else matters. The humans in charge of everything. S not wasting a minute, optimizing everything needing to stand out, not worrying about fitting in and, always the chase for more when you match those with what your values are. ’cause really our strongest motivation comes from what we value. Or should come from what we value. When you match up with what you value it’s a really good reflective exercise to say, what am I doing this for again?
And is this a moment to really consider better reasons to perform than the ones that I’ve had reach the top, get some more. Optimize be seen. I think there’s a, I think that’s a nice, that’s something I enjoyed about the book that came out of me and came out in the book.
That’s that’s an important thing to offer ourselves of especially seasonally, like how do I feel in my, I might feel different in my forties and my thirties or in my fifties and my forties. Let me recheck on what my values actually are. Am I in integrity with them? Am I in flow with the work?
Am I in vitality with myself and am I in relationship with the people I wanna be and with the world at large? Or am I in a little bubble gritting and pressing the gas?
Bruce Daisley: I was having a conversation about this specifically yesterday. I don’t feel like I’ve got clearly articulated values and I was like,
Oh, I wonder. I wonder if I could go through the process of trying to work out what my values are.
Someone’s trying to do that. Where would you advise them to start? What are the things that they need to think about? I was just trying to think. I don’t want loads of these values, but I do want to
What the things that make me tick are and what things that make me when either when you work with people in coaching or whether, when you’re going through that process yourself how do you think about reaching your own values?
Pippa Grange It’s kind, that’s what Life Reclaims does in a way. It’s like a reflective, what am I doing it the way I intend? To do it. And what else would I do if that’s not the case? One of the things that’s really important is checking your behavior first. So before you go off into some esoteric thought experiment about what your values might be, have a look at where you spend your time because most times it’s the thing that you might say you value and the thing that you spend your life on might be a bit misaligned or a bit misaligned for many of us.
So if, for example, you say. I was working with a leadership team recently, and they said their values were collaboration and openness, but when I observed them in leadership meetings. Everybody talked over each other. As soon as there was any tension, it got shut down. Left field opinions weren’t really welcome at the table because they needed a result on the hour.
Decision making was squeezed. So collaboration didn’t show up in the behavior, and openness didn’t show up in the behavior. They wanted it to, their intention was for that, but that’s not what the behavior said. So I start normally by getting people to really. Audit how they’re behaving and then stand back and say, is that what you intend?
Is that what you’re intending value wise? Does that line up with who you think you want to be and aspire to be in your value set? Post burnout for me. In invite. Being in vitality is one of my values because that if I have to strain or if I have, if I say yes, because for example, I want to be seen well, or I want to please somebody say yes to a piece of work, but it’s putting me into strain.
I’m against my values. So it really helps me align and say, no, I’m taking myself, I’m taking myself into the wrong lane here. I have to say no. So that’s or in integrity. Does it feel right to you? Does it feel valid? Or is there something that you are you chasing approval? You might be out of integrity with yourself.
Bruce Daisley: I had love to understand your take on, if the world is perceived as being. Incredibly individualistic now.
Yeah, had an episode recently where I someone telling a 5-year-old that the 5-year-old wasn’t. Respecting their boundaries, and I thought, wow, I’m not sure any 5-year-old ever has respected boundaries, but it was a, an illustration that we’ve gone so far into individualism that like this therapy talk is populating even chitchat. Toddlers and and that idea of individualism and, self-help to some extent is perceived as part of this. You are also a person that’s had to think about the collective about
You’ve mentioned teams there and about group. I think last time we spoke, you you said team culture is like the soul of a team,
Collective, that’s
An. I’d love to understand your perspective of how those things ebb and flow.
Is collectivism as important? Is this, is collectivism something that we don’t think about as much? How do you see those things in balance for us as individuals? Me thinking about my values there, but then a lot of the people who listening to this are obsessed with teams and team dynamic. How do you intersect with teams and collectivism?
Pippa Grange For me, the whole point is relationships, as we talked about last time, years ago. And you would’ve seen that through all of my work, that relationships is a central source of both purpose, fulfillment and performance. But I think we do have to think on both levels. We’ve.
Perfectly capable of thinking in pa, in parallel levels on this, there’s the outward expression of what we care about, which is into the collective. And the collective might be a team, it might be an organization, it might be a community, it might be. Us as a humanity, and we do actually need to think on that level.
And when we’re so dysregulated in our nervous systems and we’ve, so in urgency culture, we just trample over things like that because we’re busy, right? So I think it. I think there’s never been a more important time for us to put our head up and say, how’s this playing out in the world at large?
Collectively, my behavior, how’s it playing out? But the change starts inside. So it’s like an inside out job. People say, you hear in psychology and self-help a lot. It’s an inside job. Sure it is, but it’s an inside and then out job. It doesn’t just stay inside, but you need to work on you and your behavior and your mentalities, what narratives you’re living in enough that you show up in the way that you intend to in the collective, right in the world, outside of your window.
A lot of us are just psychologically indoors all the time and it’s. The mind’s a very powerful thing and very dominant. There’s a lot of chat going on in there all the time. And if we are not careful, we can inhabit that too much and not come out into the collective. And also, on the flip side if you don’t want to.
You don’t wanna have a look in the mirror. We can spend a lot of time focusing on team dynamics, for example, and never do the work on the individual and particularly how regulated, renewed, regenerated that individual is.
Bruce Daisley: Yeah it’s like thinking about I said to you as I was reading the book one of the things that was especially of interest to me was the quotation that you used, which was which was, asking yourself should you get a bigger table or put a fence around and it was about thinking about. That perspective that we have of the collective versus the
I loved that quotation, so I wonder if you could give us that perspective on that.
Pippa Grange Yeah, I think the quotation is if you find yourself fortunate build a longer table, run the higher fence, and it’s that sort of idea that like the joy of achieving and of success is when it’s shared. We that sort of gathering everything for self and more and more gain, more and more exceptionalism and standing out, standing away from the heroics of that.
It’s actually for a lot of people, it’s actually much less rewarding than they imagined when they get there. And the idea is if you find yourself successful, how can you open the doors to more people? Because that’s where the reward will be. And that doesn’t mean just do more for others.
It’s relating. It’s if you work something out in your workplace if you know how to do something, how do you. Build a longer table so that more people can come around and learn with you, move with you. And time again with leaders that I’ve worked with and high performers in sport and other team-based events particularly, that’s where they find the reward.
That’s what they remember at the end of the day. So I think it’s, it’s, I also love that quote, but I think it’s a mentality that is about opening heart as well as mindset, changing the mindset away from individual ever upward. Me orientation, I talk about from me to we, to us, me is my gain.
We might be my team, but we is all of us. Sorry, US is all of us. So yeah, I think that’s a really beautiful link back to the idea of values too. What are you here, what are you here to do?
Bruce Daisley: I just, I guess it’s not directly from the new book, but I just, I wanted to get a perspective you about culture, team cohesion, trying to build something bigger. You’ve obviously worked with lots of different teams I guess the interesting perspective that a lot of people say to me right now is that teams don’t feel as good as they felt before or they’re not as cohesive of the way we’re working the way that we are.
10. Our attention is so fragmented now that the teams don’t feel connected when you are working with teams now. I’m sure the essence of these things is unchanged and eternal, but when you are working with teams now, are the things that you are having to remind them of? What are the sort of the things that maybe they’ve seen that they’ve deprioritized that they need to be put back on the straight and narrow about?
Pippa Grange I think the thing I would say is that. Culture emerges through conditions. It’s so easy to think it’s that guy over there that needs to do X differently or, the individual’s attention is scattered short. That’s a thing, but it’s, that’s not the. I wouldn’t say that’s the fulcrum of what, what we’re experiencing in sort of diffuse culture right now.
I would say it’s the conditions and I would always orient a team or a set of leaders to rethink the conditions that they’re asking people to operate in those conditions. Where. Psychological safety shows up. Those conditions are where you feel free, mentally flexible, where there’s emotional range or not, where you feel that you have to code switch and be in role or not where you have to conform to the norm or where you can bring something new or not.
That, that. You have to rethink what is the environment. You’ve probably heard me say before, Bruce, but the, if the flower isn’t growing, you don’t blame the flower. You look at the soil and it’s the same, it’s the same thing with culture, it’s that whole mindset, that ecological mindset.
As I say, in life reclaimed it’s, you have to. Reconsider what conditions you’re creating for people to unleash what they’ve got, including their motivation, their talent, their productivity, et cetera.
Bruce Daisley: I guess the thing we’ve return to time culture isn’t necessarily about just talking about things. It’s about
That taking place, the
that you’ve created.
Pippa Grange Yeah, it’s a verb. It should be a verb. It is like you make culture, right? People make culture. It doesn’t exist outside of people. It’s made from what you resist, what you reward, what you prioritize. And if we just put junk inputs in all the time, you’ll get junk outputs junk inputs in terms of the conditions.
You’ll get junk outputs or lessened outputs or fake performative outputs. If you want something more real. And more sustainable, then you have to make real and sustainable conditions. And then that, back to your earlier question then, what’s the bravest question? A leader can ask themselves that they might resist at first in thinking about regenerative performance, it’s like, what is it that I’m not prepared to put on the table to change?
And it’s usually not a result based thing, it’s a method based thing like timing. Or the push culture, something like that.
Bruce Daisley: It’s always a fascination for me that you know, someone who’s worked with some of the highest performing individuals, and I always, the question in my head is, I wonder what they talk about. When I wonder what happens when you go into a room. And so I think the reason why I was. Moved by this book.
I’m not remotely a reflective person for good or for bad. Sometimes it’s got advantages to it. I rarely lay awake at night thinking about things. And that process of me thinking about values takes a lot to drag me to that stage where I’m like, yeah, I need to do that process. And I think I’ve got it roughly there, but I want it consistent. And so it’s just so fascinating to see what, one of the world’s most respected performance coaches actually asks you to think about. And. It’s for me, some of the most powerful stuff is that the contextualization, the perspective taking the, thinking about what you’re setting out to do rather than, what you’re trying to ticked off today.
Are incredibly powerful for me. I think people will get a lot from this because it’s inviting you to think. Look, there’s context of burnout, there’s context of how we’re feeling, but it’s also helping you to reframe what your own goals are in life. What success looks like.
And I think
What was incredibly powerful for me.
Pippa Grange Thank you. I appreciate that. And it’s I’ve got people like you in mind, Bruce, when I write for an audience because I’m thinking about it you named it before. It’s like the, you start inside, you have to start inside and then you do the outside work. But it’s, it is behavioral, it is things that we’re already doing and I just want.
I just want people to understand that they’re. Probably not doing it wrong, but they might be not paying attention to the right things, the right methods. And it might not take that much to be to get back on track with some things, but a little reframe on what are you performing for?
What is it costing you? Can you be a bit more honest about your behavior and how you’re showing up and your behavior, especially in overriding your body overriding. What, doing things in a way that you know is gonna lead to trouble one way or another. Even if it doesn’t lead to burnout, it might lead to, as I was saying before, worse performance because we’re just human and that’s what human beings need and do.
You can regenerate within. The set of circumstances that you find yourself in today. And it’s not all naval gazing. It’s definitely requires action. That’s the back end of the book of what do you, so what do you do next?
Bruce Daisley: Yeah.
Will we see, I see that Dear England, the tv the play is gonna be making its way onto TV
Pippa Grange it is.
Bruce Daisley: and you are a character in that play. Will you be will you be on our TV screens this
Pippa Grange Unfortunately for you guys, yes, I will. Is not me. It is Jody Whitaker who’s playing Dr. Pepper Grange in the TV adaptation. So I think the play got 422,000. People through England who went to the theater to see it. It’s just, I’m so proud of them for being willing to dramatize the emotional side of sport like that.
And people loved it. It’s not about me, it’s about what they created and what that moment represented. And I think that’s fantastic. But yet it will be a four part series just before the World Cup on the BBC.
Bruce Daisley: to, have you seen it yourself?
Pippa Grange Not yet. I’m gonna have a preview. It’s too cringey.
Bruce Daisley: Yeah, of course.
Pippa Grange It’s so weird.
It’s so weird. But but no, I haven’t seen, I’ve seen the play, but I haven’t seen the TV adaptation yet. Yeah,
Bruce Daisley: Oh, how exciting. It’s, and like you say, exciting and surreal in
Pippa Grange very, yeah. Very surreal. Yeah, it’s very odd.
Bruce Daisley: Oh, fantastic. Thank you Pippa, thank you so much for taking the time to, to come and talk and I loved the fact that for me this was, lot of people might have read your previous book, fearless, but this is really a sort of partner piece really. It’s
Into,
Pippa Grange an ongoing conversation.
Bruce Daisley: It is the quality of writing is it’s just enjoyable just to sit and reflect upon.
Pippa Grange Thank you.
Bruce Daisley: a fabulous job there.
Pippa Grange I really appreciate that. Thanks.
